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Kenzoku goes Super Saiyan, transforms into ~Band of Brothers Reloaded~

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Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.03.24 13:59:00 - [1] Well playing Eve is voluntary at the end of the day. If the goons don't like that Band of Brothers (kinda) got their name back then they aren't being forced to continue their subscription payments. Lets get it into perspective. Within the letter of the game documentation the alliance disband wasn't apparently possible in the first place. If ccp are going to honour "Haargoth" disbanding the orginal alliance and take no action against Goons reinstituting a Band of Brothers alt corp purely to post spam on CAOD with while impersonating an in-game entity against past eula guidance then it seems absolutely reasonable that a compromise is reached and they let BOB rename their current alliance to a form that respects the gameplay investment of its member base in previous years. This current threadnaughting on the other hand is immature foot-stamping at best and I think the actual Eve community (as opposed to the SA community) will be getting a bit tired of goons throwing their toys out of prams every time the slightest thing goes against them by now. Whineswarm strikes again. Just grow up and play the game. ISSUE - Bring Space Bushido to CAOD
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.03.24 20:25:00 - [2] Originally by: Gail Sohmbadi SirMolle deleted all shares in the BoB executor corp, to avoid having to wait 24 hours for his Alliance changes to go through. This meant that ANYONE with equivalent roles in Tinfoil, (The Executor Corp for BoB,) had the same ability to make instant changes to the Alliance. The whole reasons voting shares even EXIST is to prevent someone from screwing over the alliance, yet SirMolle deleted these shares. Silly Goon. It doesn't work like that. Regardless of the share status in the executor corp you can still instantly kick alliances and disband the alliance. ISSUE - Bring Space Bushido to CAOD
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.03.24 20:40:00 - [3] Originally by: Retepp Nedsmul This is terrible. I started playing Eve because of all the the latest Goonswarm/BoB antics. This game is so great because all the content is player driven. No other MMO is like this. Anything within the mechanics of the game is considered fair. The concept that a GM can affect the actions between corporations behaving within the game mechanics is inexcusable in Eve. I joined up for the opportunity to possibly be involved in something truly unique in this genre, but if the devs will just roll back stuff like this, why the hell am I playing this game over some other random MMO. You really shouldn't listen to all the hype. Back when I started in 2003 I was part of a fleet battle in Venal where we had assembled a 100 ship fleet to camp a gate to block an incoming 100 ship pirate group from coming to raid and pillage our space empire. (Back then that was a ALOT). Anyways we deployed many many spacemines round the jump-in point and waited - thinking that the incoming fleet would be damaged and more susceptable to our guns as a result. Only the pirate fleet petitioned against us for intentionally creating lag (by deploying space mines) and the GM teleported their entire group past our gatecamp to somewhere else in our system and let them continue on their rampage. As a result we ended up engaging in less than optimal circumstances and lost our fleet and in the coming days that defeat was magnified into the eventual loss of the alliance in Venal. That was a GM action that changed the result of the entire campaign in essence. But here's the thing, we didn't threadnaught to the forums about it because we respected CCP GM's to be trying to do the right thing under difficult circumstances and sometimes you just need to accept the referees decision (even if you don't like it.) As a result of that action spacemines were eventually removed from the game because they could be abused to make "lag-traps" and were considered bring nothing much to space warfare. Anybody who has played eve-online for a little while at certain levels of seniority in organizational conflict will have a dozen little stories like this. These things happen. That day the teleportation of a fleet lost me a space empire Life goes on. No point crying foul about it. GMs are called to make decisions every day in Eve online, some are good, some are bad - some fair, some not, but ultimately its a hard unrewarding job that needs to be done. I mean who else would you trust as an arbitrator in these cases? Certainly not a howling forum mob of goons with chronic entitlement syndrome and epic blueballs from pointlessly camping a station for a month ISSUE - Bring Space Bushido to CAOD
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.03.25 00:19:00 - [4] Originally by: Retepp Nedsmul That does suck that you lost your empire and everything, but I have the same reaction to that as this. Neither should happen. They want to stop space mine lagging, they should have banned mines like they eventually did. No gate camp hopping, nothing else. It doesn't really suck, that wasn't my point. I was illustrating that GM's make hard calls in difficult situations that will inevitably upset one side or another. In this case the GM in question probably felt he was doing us all a favour and triggering a spaceship fight away from the jump-in and saving players from the lag of mines. Whatever really. Some of our fleet were upset at the time of course, but with a bit of perspective you just see this is the business of refereeing and its never clean and simple. Hell, you ever been to a football match? The abuse the poor old referees get over free kicks, corners and penalties. Sometimes they do get things wrong but their purpose is to keep the game flowing and make decisions on the best of their ability to do so. Quote: They want to fix the whole one guy essentially deleting an alliance? Then fix it so it doesn't happen again, but leave what happened untouched. They pretty much did. The moment there wasn't a rollback and BOB lost absolutely all sovereignty overnight was ccp indicating that the action would stand. The problem here is that the GM's were staring into the headlights of a goon whine fest of epic proportions with what came next. Identity theft has never previously been allowed to stand. I don't think any of the old and wiser players expected it too this time. But rather than simply renaming the Darius JOHNSON formed alt corp Band of Brothers and letting BOB re-establish its alliance name (with no sovereignty) the GMs delayed the decision. We can guess the reasons for this. With Apocrypha due in the next couple of weeks I guess CCP didn't need the huge whinefest that would have ensued if the GMs had taken the entirely reasonable step of removing the stolen corp name and letting BOB have their name back. So they compromised, they let the goons keep the stolen name through fear of goon whinage if what had happened with the identity theft was rightfully reversed. Quote: While the action of fixing a name is fairly minor, it's the intent behind it and the slippery slope it's on. It's the principle in the end. I actually agree with you but not for the reasons you might think. The principle here at stake is that the GMs appeared to be afraid of goon whining to the degree that they didn't reverse the identity theft in a timely manner. This is whats led to the current messy compromise and from the massive threadnaughting that has afflicted the forums in the last 24 hours its shown that its never a good idea to expect chronic entitlement cases to respect a rational settlement. Quote: It just seems like the devs are taking a dump on their games best feature, and what makes it unique. That really isn't the case. Identity theft has previosly had absolutely no place in the universe of eve online. That stuff has always been rectified quickly in the history of the game and this is probably the first ever incident of a stolen corp name being allowed to stand. Quote: Uh, and forgive my newbness, I just looked you up after noting the replys you seem to get. Are you part of that CSM, player - developer connection thingy? Oh ignore the goon replies in the main. They are still sore I managed to beat their leader in the first CSM elections. I served my first term last year and am taking a break before the next. ISSUE - Bring Space Bushido to CAOD
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.03.25 00:51:00 - [5] Originally by: Gail Sohmbadi I suppose you can hope that eventually people will forget how useless you were as a CSM, and you will be able to attempt another entry, with a new voting public. Heh, you do realize there is a pretty healthy "anti-goon" vote out there to be harnessed right Anyways, conspiracy theories aside on my reasons for waiting for black ops changes to get into game before running on my record - lets get back to the subject of the thread. ISSUE - Bring Space Bushido to CAOD
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.03.25 00:52:00 - [6] Originally by: Yarik Mendel Don't worry, we'll be there to quote his terrible ideas and postings on his candidacy thread to fend of any supporters that aren't his corpmates' alts. Funny thing is last time I asked you to defend your point of view on the assembly hall you ran away! Heh, will take more than the virtual equivilent of "knock-down-ginger" to win you any debate points old chap ISSUE - Bring Space Bushido to CAOD
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.03.25 01:00:00 - [7] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 25/03/2009 01:00:30 Originally by: Palmer Eldritch Just to clarify for those who don't know, KenZoku wasn't called KenZoku because of any identity theft. It was created, and named, in August 2008, while the original Band of Brothers was still in existence. When Band of Brothers was disbanded by one of its directors, corporations which had been members of BoB chose to join KenZoku of their own free will, instead of making a new alliance (for example, an alliance named Band of Brothers Reloaded). They did this because getting straight into a pre-existing alliance gave them an advantage - a legal, within the rules advantage - in the ongoing war in 0.0 space. I imagine they did it because the initial petition didn't yield the expected result of having the goon alt corp "band of brothers" renamed to "evecorp 239013909" thereby allowing the BOB leaders to establish another band of brothers alliance immediately. The fact that this was the established protocol in cases of identity theft following alliance disbands previously appears not to have entered into the calculations this time. Now admittedly BOB themselves muddied the waters by moving to the kenzoku identity but since CCP weren't exactly going to freeze the server and hold the ongoing war while the gms were investigating the petition you can understand why they did it. The current compromise solution is something that won't likely please anyone 100%. Band of Brothers corporation in Goonswarm should be renamed. BOB should be offered their original alliance name back. GM's should offer them the straight choice between continuing with the current partial sovereignty holding Band of Brothers reloaded or a clean start with the original Band of Brothers name once its removed from goon blocking. Whether this can possibly happen admist all the shouting tears and threadnaughting is unlikely. ISSUE - Bring Space Bushido to CAOD
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.03.25 02:39:00 - [8] Originally by: Retepp Nedsmul Uh.... I would hardly call what happened ôidentity theftö or ôstolenö in the way I think you mean. The BoB name was acquired completely within the scope of game mechanics. The idea that Goonswarm should have the BoB name ôrightfully reversedö is ridiculous and runs counter to everything that makes Eve great. Previously Eve online GM's have renamed impersonating corporations and individuals and have returned "stolen names" to the original owners. The whole theft of identity theme that came to the fore in this blocking of alliance recreation by sitting on an alt corp is new ground and its never been allowed to stand before. I'd contend that Eve is not "made great" by allowing cheap director emocides to risk the identity of groups of thousands of players with no mechanism to rectify the situation. Eve is about space opera, politics and clash of arms. Cheesy creation of alt-corps to exploit a weakness in the naming mechanic system is hardly adding much to Eve's mystique. Goons claiming to have defeated BOB because they cheated and stole their name is not exactly good copy. Quote: The rest of your answers sort of hinge on this idea of something has been æstolenÆ so IÆll leave one quick comment. Hargooth or whoever it was, did not get forced into anything. He chose to disband BoB. While one may disagree with the ease in which he did this, itÆs not stealing. You and I and 99.9% of the rest of the server will never know precisely what happened there. We can guess. We can make assumptions, but we'll never know. But the "stealing of identity" is the creation of an alt corp to block the recreation of an established alliance name. It was obvious what was being done and it should have been rectified by the GMs. Quote: Adding safeguards in the future to the game so that this is harder to accomplish is fine. But whatÆs done is done, and done completely within the game. Not stealing, not theft, not cheating. I'm afraid I disagree on the naming issue. I consider it an exploit of the naming mechanism in game. Certainly there used to be an explicit eula term that made it against the rules to impersonate other players and organizations. I am also informed that there has been a prior case of identity theft in a similar manner (alliance disbanded due to non payment of fees and recreated by an enemy) that was resolved by renaming the offending parties alliance. Quote: Sure thing, the reason I asked was I was curious as to your stance on this issue as a CSM representative. I guess that would seem pretty obvious now, so IÆm going assume youÆre in favour of the choice made by CCP Well as I've said elsewhere I think CCP have not done the correct thing here (which would have been to rename the band of brothers alt corp and allow BOB to recreate their alliance with the correct name.) This would have put the matter to bed months ago and would have avoided all the complication over a sov holding entity being renamed which we now have. On balance though I think its still a fair compromise (although not one to really satisfy anyone). But what was really needed was an early decisive resolution that saw Band of Brothers name returned and the past precedent against identity theft upheld and restated. ISSUE - Bring Space Bushido to CAOD
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.03.25 03:26:00 - [9] Originally by: Yarik Mendel Originally by: Jade Constantine You and I and 99.9% of the rest of the server will never know precisely what happened there. We can guess. Or you can shut up, and we can ask CCP to clear the confusion. Real easy. They never will because they aren't going to discuss a players circumstances with the general Eve public (and nor should they.) Hence any comment on the Haargoth affair is simply speculation at best. We will never know precisely what happened there. ISSUE - Bring Space Bushido to CAOD
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.03.25 03:36:00 - [10] Originally by: Retepp Nedsmul Well if youÆre suggesting that Hargooth (or whoever) was forced in some manner, thatÆs pretty ridiculous statement to make without evidence. Who knows really? Maybe he sold the account? Maybe a "friend" accessed his computer? Maybe he got bought off with aluminium-stocks or something? Nobody knows and its all irrelevant anyways. What happened with the disband happened and CCP decided to let it stand. But what should not have stood was the alt corp "band of brothers" created with the express intention of blocking the recreation of the band of brothers alliance in a clear exploit of the naming system. Its clear we'll disagree on this point and I hope you can appreciate that strong feelings exist on either side of the discussion. I (and many others who play this game) feel that the identity of our corporations and alliances is something that is sacrosanct to our continued subscription and participation. From the moment we attend real world meets and build friendships, print tee-shirts, commission artwork and build web-infrastructure around our corp and alliance identities we have placed a claim of ownership over the names we've chosen to build. I contend that identity should not be a spoil of war in Eve Online. When Band of Brothers dies it should be because they have been defeated in war and decide to surrender and disband of their own choice. I certainly would fight/petition/argue and debate most strongly to have "The Star Fraction" name returned to my alliance if it was ever stolen in a similar identity theft. CCP do need to consider this matter very carefully in the future because as things stand they have left a nasty metagaming exploit open that endangers much of the alliance identity building game they have previously traded on. ISSUE - Bring Space Bushido to CAOD

Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.03.25 04:04:00 - [11] Originally by: spinarax I named my ships xxxx`s ship to mislead ppl, is that an exploit? And what about all those corp/alliance names with a dot"." at the end? there`s no copyright law on player created names. Funnily enough there used to be. And of course you'll get a warning if you rename your ship certain things. Quote: metagaming exploits? lolwut. If CCP does deem corporate espionage as an exploit, they have rollback all the way to back GHSC... GHSC took their money not their name. ISSUE - Bring Space Bushido to CAOD
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.03.25 14:31:00 - [12] Originally by: Lem2J Edited by: Lem2J on 25/03/2009 12:26:11 Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Retepp Nedsmul Well if youÆre suggesting that Hargooth (or whoever) was forced in some manner, thatÆs pretty ridiculous statement to make without evidence. Who knows really? Maybe he sold the account? Maybe a "friend" accessed his computer? Maybe he got bought off with aluminium-stocks or something? Nobody knows and its all irrelevant anyways. What happened with the disband happened and CCP decided to let it stand. But what should not have stood was the alt corp "band of brothers" created with the express intention of blocking the recreation of the band of brothers alliance in a clear exploit of the naming system. Its clear we'll disagree on this point and I hope you can appreciate that strong feelings exist on either side of the discussion. I (and many others who play this game) feel that the identity of our corporations and alliances is something that is sacrosanct to our continued subscription and participation. From the moment we attend real world meets and build friendships, print tee-shirts, commission artwork and build web-infrastructure around our corp and alliance identities we have placed a claim of ownership over the names we've chosen to build. I contend that identity should not be a spoil of war in Eve Online. When Band of Brothers dies it should be because they have been defeated in war and decide to surrender and disband of their own choice. I certainly would fight/petition/argue and debate most strongly to have "The Star Fraction" name returned to my alliance if it was ever stolen in a similar identity theft. CCP do need to consider this matter very carefully in the future because as things stand they have left a nasty metagaming exploit open that endangers much of the alliance identity building game they have previously traded on. When Cult of War (COW) didnt pay the bill, the alliance was disbanded. A third party took the corp name in order to block the re-creation of Cow. I petitioned this, the corp was re-named and we paid the fee to recreate the alliance... The same rules should apply to BOB imo, Sov should have been lost (as they did) but they should be able to retain the name. Thank you for your post and your honesty. Originally by: Lem2J When Cult of War (COW) didnt pay the bill, the alliance was disbanded. A third party took the corp name in order to block the re-creation of Cow. I petitioned this, the corp was re-named and we paid the fee to recreate the alliance... This is game, set and match for the argument really. It is impossible to continue arguing against Band of Brothers getting their orginal name back while the precise situation with Cult of War is on record and past precedence is established. ISSUE - Bring Space Bushido to CAOD
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.03.25 14:38:00 - [13] Originally by: Zeph1rus Originally by: Jade Constantine This is game, set and match for the argument really. It is impossible to continue arguing against Band of Brothers getting their orginal name back while the precise situation with Cult of War is on record and past precedence is established. Yeah because failure of logic has always stopped you posting you horrible, miserable waste of flesh. I think when we get to the point that a 5000 man alliance has absolutely no way to refute a valid point and just gets to posting primal screams of wordless rage we're pretty much done. Slur insults as you will goons. You are wrong. ISSUE - Bring Space Bushido to CAOD
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.03.25 18:40:00 - [14] Originally by: Shikome Alluin Seriously Jade, answer me this: Why did .BoB. not loose sov + have to pay the 1 billion isk like COW had to? Because in my opinion the GM decision was wrong in this case. Using the precedent of the COW disband and blocking corp rename the GM's should have immediately renamed the Band of Brothers corporation in Goonswarm control and invited Bob leadership to reform their alliance then and there. GMs made a hash of this - they took way too long to reach a decision and were (in my opinion) swayed by fear of negative PR from the inevitable goon backlash whatever they did. As a result we've got the current compromise solution that pleases nobody much and hasn't resolved the issue of Goons being favoured by GM team upholding their identity theft. Quote: Yes Cow was disbanded because of unpaid bills, but they had to pay the Alliance registration fee and reform their alliance. I agree - Band of Brothers should have paid 1billion isk to reform Band of Brothers once the goon blocking corp was removed. Quote: .BoB. was KenZuko at the time of the name change to "Reloaded", thus its only logical they would have to disband KenZuko to reform "Reloaded" is it not? Yes it is logical and the only reason this hasn't happened is a poor compromise that has been reached because the GM's haven't acted to remove the goon blocking corp. Quote: They got special treatment, CCP bending above examples rules and bypassing the sov loss and registration fee. Goons received special treatment in having the band of brothers alt blocking corp remain in game when such tactics have led to similar corps being renamed in the past. BOB received special treatment in an attempt to reach a compromise decision that didn't risk igniting a goon threadnaught of rage (oh the naivety). Quote: You can not ignore this! I know you will try though... Why on earth would I ignore this. ISSUE - Bring Space Bushido to CAOD
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.03.25 18:48:00 - [15] Originally by: Kinet Jade, I think your missing the actual cause that has most of us angry. As noted above CCP set precedence for renaming an alliance. When the BOB name was taken, most of us agree it should have been given back BUT that soverenty should have been lost. I agree. Quote: That didnt happen and CCP handled it incorrectly and inconsistantly. I agree again. Quote: THEN after two months they allowed Kenzoku to rename without losing sov or recreating the alliance. I think I speak for many of us here when I say it is not about BOB getting their name back, it is about CCP continuing to make mistakes and not follow precedence when dealing with matters between GS and BOB. And again. I completely agree. This matter has not been handled well. CCP have behaved with partiality favouring first GOONs then BOB and pleasing nobody. Quote: It's like a dev war between little kids, those with BOB doing what they can to help them and those with GS doing what they can to help them. CCP needs to act like an adult and apply the same policy to everyone regardless of having devs in the group. Absolutely. Quote: Thats not happening, even you admit that based on the CoW actions that BOB should have gotten its name back two months ago. Why did this not happen? If I was on the CSM at the moment I'd be asking that question as a very serious matter of course. It was a terrible mistake that CCP let this go on as long as it has. Quote: Even you have to admit that CCP is handling these events badly. What happened to all that talk the last time to putting auditing in place for the devs? Yes I completely agree. None of this scandal and froth would have happened if CCP simply renamed the goon alt corp in the first place and allowed BOB to re-establish their alliance with the proper name for the bargain fee of 1b isk. Quote: What happened to the big internal investigation department and other nonsense that CCP told the media was going into effect to protect the paying customers from dev misconduct? How is the CSM going to help prevent the devs and GMs from making these kinds of mistakes? Well I'm not currently on the CSM of course, but if I had been chair when this matter broke back I'd have tabled the matter as a priority to take to CCP. I can see absolutely no justification for GMs not renaming the goon alt corp that blocked the reformation of band of brothers for the 1b isk fee. Hope this is informative. ISSUE - Bring Space Bushido to CAOD

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